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Thread: Hebi Sasuke vs Kakuzu

  1. #26
    Organization 13 Antdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed93david View Post
    Hahaha, it's the same information if you ever care to read it. There's no change in any of the information

    You seriously over rate Sasuke and seriously underrate Kakashi

    Naruto during the Immortals arc was said and suggested to be stronger then Kakashi. Sasuke Pre-Hebi was said to be stronger then Naruto with 3 tails(who is stronger then Kakashi and Kakashi was scared of two tailed Naruto) and only got stronger when he absorbed Orochi. I think it's pretty clear who the manga is portraying as the stronger of the two. Now add in that Sasuke actually has a multiple one shot hit jutsu as oppose to Kakashi, Sasuke having a great defense with snakes and CS as oppose to Kakashi who doesn't have much, add in the power+speed boost he gets by using the CS lvl 1+2 and the other things and it becomes quite clear that Sasuke is better then Kakashi. Kakashi's good just not Hebi Sasuke good, no underrating going on, on my part.
    Last edited by Antdog; 08-23-2014 at 06:48 PM.




  2. #27
    Duelist Ed93david's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antdog View Post
    Naruto during the Immortals arc was said and suggested to be stronger then Kakashi. Sasuke Pre-Hebi was said to be stronger then Naruto with 3 tails(who is stronger then Kakashi and Kakashi was scared of two tailed Naruto) and only got stronger when he absorbed Orochi. I think it's pretty clear who the manga is portraying as the stronger of the two. Now add in that Sasuke actually has a multiple one shot hit jutsu as oppose to Kakashi, Sasuke having a great defense with snakes and CS as oppose to Kakashi who doesn't have much, add in the power+speed boost he gets by using the CS lvl 1+2 and the other things and it becomes quite clear that Sasuke is better then Kakashi. Kakashi's good just not Hebi Sasuke good, no underrating going on, on my part.
    Am totally speechless, in my book, there's nothing Sasuke has done to ever show him being superior to Kakashi. I feel like you think that there's no one Sasuke can't beat.

  3. #28
    Organization 13 Antdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed93david View Post
    Am totally speechless, in my book, there's nothing Sasuke has done to ever show him being superior to Kakashi.
    Then to put it bluntly you haven't been reading the manga.

    I feel like you think that there's no one Sasuke can't beat.
    Oh stop being an idiot. Just because I read the manga to know Hebi Sasuke> Immortals arc Kakashi and think he has a good shot at beating Kakuzu, that doesn't mean I think no one could beat Hebi Sasuke




  4. #29
    Duelist Ed93david's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antdog View Post
    Then to put it bluntly you haven't been reading the manga.



    Oh stop being an idiot. Just because I read the manga to know Hebi Sasuke> Immortals arc Kakashi and think he has a good shot at beating Kakuzu, that doesn't mean I think no one could beat Hebi Sasuke
    That really wasn't an answer, I will repeat my self there's nothing you have mentioned or in the manga and anime that even suggests to me that Sasuke is superior to Kakashi. No matter what way you look at it, I believe you don't think there's anyone Sasuke can't beat.

  5. #30
    Organization 13 Antdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed93david View Post
    That really wasn't an answer, I will repeat my self there's nothing you have mentioned or in the manga and anime that even suggests to me that Sasuke is superior to Kakashi.
    Why would I give you an answer when you didn't ask a question?

    No matter what way you look at it, I believe you don't think there's anyone Sasuke can't beat.
    Whatever helps you sleep at night




  6. #31
    Duelist Ed93david's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antdog View Post
    Why would I give you an answer when you didn't ask a question?



    Whatever helps you sleep at night
    Okay I will ask a question, who do you think Sasuke can't beat, and please don't say Madara or the first hokage and such.

  7. #32
    Organization 13 Antdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed93david View Post
    Okay I will ask a question, who do you think Sasuke can't beat, and please don't say Madara or the first hokage and such.
    Onoki, Muu, Sandaime Raikage, A, Killer B, French Dude, Darui(though that's a close one), SM Naruto and up, Kabuto, Orochi, Jiraiya, Nagato, Kisame, Konan, Sasori(depending on how poison would work), All forms of Madara, Hashi, Tobi, Minato, Pre War arc and up Obito Itachi, Danzo, Hanzo(depending on how poison would work), Gai, War arc Kakashi and up, six paths of pain, Gaara, Mei(though it would be close), and Yondaime Kazekage. I'm sure there's a few more that I missed but these are the first that popped in my head




  8. #33
    @Ed93david,

    This is not the proper way to debate in the BattleDome, you are making yourself look like a noob. When you are about to lose an argument, I suggest that you admit defeat or leave the thread instead of discrediting your opponent. Antdog never overplayed/downplayed any combatant, he provided a good explanation as to why he thinks Sasuke wins, whereas you did nothing but keep bringing up Kakuzu's previous fights and make this Sasuke vs Kakashi. I recommend that you stop writing with weak logic and use feats. I'm not asking you to be a scan-whore/feats-only guy and ignore common sense/logic though.

    In a nutshell, you did nothing to support Kakuzu other than attempting to deny the fact that Hebi Sasuke has Kirin and bring up Kakuzu's previous fights which are irrelevant.

    I was going to reply to your post via my iPad but that's pointless now because Antdog said pretty much everything I was going to address in my retort.

  9. #34
    Duelist Ed93david's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoro View Post
    @Ed93david,

    This is not the proper way to debate in the BattleDome, you are making yourself look like a noob. When you are about to lose an argument, I suggest that you admit defeat or leave the thread instead of discrediting your opponent. Antdog never overplayed/downplayed any combatant, he provided a good explanation as to why he thinks Sasuke wins, whereas you did nothing but keep bringing up Kakuzu's previous fights and make this Sasuke vs Kakashi. I recommend that you stop writing with weak logic and use feats. I'm not asking you to be a scan-whore/feats-only guy and ignore common sense/logic though.

    In a nutshell, you did nothing to support Kakuzu other than attempting to deny the fact that Hebi Sasuke has Kirin and bring up Kakuzu's previous fights which are irrelevant.

    I was going to reply to your post via my iPad but that's pointless now because Antdog said pretty much everything I was going to address in my retort.
    Well I sort of called it quits a few posts ago, I have had no intention of discrediting Antdog and if I did, it wasn't international, you seem to want a detailed essay on why Kakuzu would beat Sasuke and so here I ago, this confrontation would start off as a taijutsu battle which Kakuzu has the upper hand thanks to his strength (remember he was able to catch Choji's enlarged punches so you can imagine the physical strength that would require and he was able to walk away uninjured ) and he's skin(it has been enhanced due to his earth release in order to make it hard, this skin won't be breached or damage by any normal attacks (both physical and ninjutsu)) Sasuke can penetrate the skin using his lightning release by channelling lightning through his sword or using the chidori (I believe it's worth mentioning that even if Sasuke cuts off one of Kakuzu's hands, or limbs or inflicts an injury, Kakuzu can use his earth grudge fear to sew up any wound or injury sustained and that includes disembodied limbs and organs) once Kakuzu realises that Sasuke can use lightning release (either by observing Sasuke chanel lightning or after he gets hit by one of his lightning based atracks) let's say Sasuke is successful in destroying one of Kakuzu's hearts, Sasuke has no knowledge of Kakuzu's abilities and how many hearts Kakuzu has. This will cause Kakuzu to switch to long range ( I chose the scenario where Kakuzu gets hit by a lightning based attack and he decides to switch to long range but could have gone with Kakuzu switching to long range after seeing Sasuke create a chidori or chanel lightning through his sword because of the weakness of his earth style defense but I didn't chose the latter because I will have to explain why he didn't switch to long range when he saw Kakashi use his lightning cutter.) so this is now a long range battle and Sasuke's long range techniques like the fire ball jutsu and he's other fire based techniques won't work as I explained before so he will have to relay on his chidori spear that requires you to be with in 5M of your target, okay since Sasuke used chidori to destroy what he believed to be Kakuzu's main heart, he could try again and aim for the same exact spot once he can close the distance between him to create the opportunity to use it, obviously this won't have any effect on Kakuzu since his heart was already destroyed (let's say Sasuke somehow now acquires the information regarding Kakuzu's hearts) he will try and use the branched chidori Spear let's assume he's successful in using the technique (how many hearts will he hit with attack, keep in mind he doesn't know the location of the hearts (you know since the sharingan doesn't offer x-ray vision) I give him a 50% probability that the branched chidori Spears will hit a heart, so let's say he has now destroyed 2 more of Kakuzu's hearts), I didn't include the chidori senbon as one of his long range attacks he can use because even though they are lightning based, I don't think they have the force and power to destroy, much less breach Kakuzu's skin. Now let's talk about Kakuzu's offensive capabilities, thanks to his earth grudge fear he is able to extend stitches from his body that act as fast moving extended projectiles, and now let's talk about his mask beasts, there are supposed to be four of them which act as detachable weapons that can use different powerful element based techniques such as fire Release: Intelligent Hard Work Lightning Release: False Darkness Wind Release: Pressure Damage, which deal quite a lot of damage, and avoiding this techniques is very difficult especially the fire Release intelligent hardwork (that starts out as a simple fire ball that erupts into a storm of fire upon impact and keeps spreading on the surface or ground to eventually covers large distances) and the wind release pressure damage (a tornado like mass is compressed until it reaches its highest density, once released, upon impact on either target or ground, it creates a blast that destroys a wide area and releases a storm like pressure that blows away the surrounding objects that are outside the blast radius) this two attacks can be combined to release a more devastating attack, Sasuke has to avoid this three continuous attacks will avoiding getting hit from attacks from Kakuzu's main body that's using the earth mask technique earth release earth spear (now Sasuke according to the Databook is slightly faster than Kakuzu but is as fast as Kakashi on an equal level, reason am bringing Kakashi up is that since Kakashi is as fast as Sasuke, Kakashi was having difficulty evading this attacks and in principle Sasuke will too, Kakashi and the rest of team 10 were eventually caught by Kakuzu's threads and would have been eventually killed if it wasn't for the intervention of team 7 but keep in mind Kakuzu wasn't as fast as Kakashi but was fast enough to react and counter his attacks) so in order to overcome this difficult Sasuke will use the curse seal to enhance himself, we don't really know how much his speed will change but let's assume it's now doubled, Kakuzu has already seen through his lightning jutsus and how they work Sasuke's has to close the distance between them and use a chidori on the main body and hope to destroy the remaining hearts, he has to over power and destroy the masked beasts before he can try and attack the main body, I guess this is where you would say summons like manda come in, but as I explained before I don't think Kakuzu will have any trouble dealing with manda (Due to his line of work as a tailed beast Hunter, he was able to bring down the two tails in its transformed form, even though you can say he had help doesn't change the fact that the power and skills it would take to bring down a transformed tailed beast is enormous and he was shown waking away from the fight unharmed when he gave Yugitto's body to Zetsu, would mean dealing with manda would be easy as manda comes no where near the power of a tailed beast)
    Sasuke can't maintain using the curse seal for long, so as time progresses with Kakuzu putting him on the defensive end. Sasuke will eventually get hit by a attack from either the masks or from Kakuzu capturing him to steal his heart, whichever comes fast.
    But let's say he somehow destroys the masks and heads for the main body, and Sasuke manages to destroy his last remaining hearts, Kakuzu can use the earth mask to revive one of his destroyed hearts under the assumption that it's over Kakuzu can surprise Sasuke and launch a what would be a fatal attack or Continue on fighting, plus I think I should mention that given Kakuzu's intelligence compared to that of Sasuke's, this scenario will most likely not happen(I suppose it's worth mentioning that the masks all four of them can act as replacements for any of his damaged hearts) I suppose it's also worth mentioning that Kakuzu can fuse with the masks to make himself more powerful which I feel will rival the curse seal, so no matter how you look at it Sasuke will lose, please keep in mind I have thrown Sasuke too many bones hear just to try and level the field and I have justified my reasons on why Kakuzu would win.

    And you I kept bringing up Kakashi in order for him to act as a frame of reference (in my previous posts it would have been easier to determine who would win between Sasuke and Kakashi, simply because if Sasuke can't beat Kakashi, then I feel like he won't be able to beat Kakuzu)

    Plus I explained countless times in my previous posts why kirin is not an option, until the weather conditions of the battle are specified because if it's a clear sunny day Sasuke would have to create the storm cloud conditions in order to use the technique and this requires time and chakra, keep in mind the last time Sasuke used kirin, he had Itachi's amaterasu helping create the weather conditions (when Itachi engulfed the surrounding forest in fire using amaterasu) the great Dragon fire technique speeded up the process. If it's during a rainy weather than yes kirin is in play and would ideally give Sasuke the advantage.

  10. #35
    King of Trolls Lucian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dei View Post
    If Itachi was almost killed by Kirin, then I don't think Kakuzu would stand a chance. But then again, there's only one of his hearts taken away then.

    What does Kakuzu have? 5 elements (4), and super hard skin, and 5 lives.
    What does Sasuke have over this? 2 elements, speed, a weapon, and intelligence.

    While Kakuzu is a slow fighter who relies on his hearts, he does have 4 elements at his disposal and rarely has to dispose any chakra.

    Sasuke has speed and better tactics than Kakuzu, because let's face it, Sasuke is very intelligent. Let's not forget about the fact that he almost defeated Itachi in a weakened state.

    But why didn't Kakashi beat Kakuzu? Kakashi had a rough time with Kakuzu mostly due to the fact that he had already fought 1 fight with Hidan, thus expending his stamina, which he has little of, opposite to Sasuke who has a lot of chakra and stamina.

    The verdict:

    With Sasuke's superiority in intelligence, stamina, chakra then Kakuzu. Sasuke would outlast Kakuzu and be able to at least destroy 3 to 4 hearts in a matter of time. Let's also not forget that Sasuke can fly, due to the curse mark. He also defeated Deidara using genjutsu, but with a genjutsu resistant Deidara. Imagine using genjutsu on someone who has never faced an Uchiha canonically? That's defeat right there.

    Who wins?

    Sasuke.

    Why? He's faster, smarter, has Uchiha hax powers, and is durable. Let's not forget Sasuke's Curse Mark and Kirin attack which can kill even the likes of Itachi.
    Sasuke had absorbed Orochimaru when he fought Itachi though.
    This is base Hebi with CS2 without snakes.

    "Make sure you'll do your part, and SCREAM for me!"

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed93david View Post
    this confrontation would start off as a taijutsu battle which Kakuzu has the upper hand thanks to his strength (remember he was able to catch Choji's enlarged punches so you can imagine the physical strength that would require and he was able to walk away uninjured)
    Physical strength is not the only factor that should be taken into account when it comes to Taijutsu. In Taijutsu, Sasuke has the upper hand due to his speed and agility, versatility, maneuverability and high-tier strength, and all this was showcased in all of his battles, especially his battle with Deidara and Itachi. I have already pointed out that Sasuke in base form was able to physically evade an Amaterasu (without intel), which is faster and more "shocking" than Susanoo's Arrow, which Kakashi was unable to physically evade and had to resort to Kamui. Therefore, between Hebi Sasuke and Kage Summit Arc Kakashi, it's evident that Hebi Sasuke excels in speed as he was able to evade an Amaterasu without full knowledge of it whereas Kakashi could not evade a Susano'o arrow from a near-blind, exhausted Sasuke and explicitly stated that he would not have survived if he had not used Kamui. If Kage Summit Kakashi is inferior to Sasuke in terms of speed, then it is logical to say that Kakuzu and Hidan arc Kakashi is equal or even slower than Kage Summit Kakashi, so since Immortal arc Kakashi could keep up with Kakuzu's speed as well as his masks' speed while fighting Hidan, Sasuke certainly won't have problems dealing with Kakuzu in both Taijutsu and long-range fighting. Moreover, Sasuke's large array of Raiton technique which can be utilized in close quarter combat and long-range combat poses a formidable threat to Kakuzu whose defense is mostly based on Doton (Raiton can negate Doton). Add to that the fact that Sasuke can enter Cursed Seal Mode lvl 1 to get his overall power, including his speed, drastically enhanced, and Cursed Seal Mode lvl 2 which is a power-up beyond that power-up. Sasuke in CS2 will definitely excel in most -if not all- areas.


    and he's skin(it has been enhanced due to his earth release in order to make it hard, this skin won't be breached or damage by any normal attacks (both physical and ninjutsu)) Sasuke can penetrate the skin using his lightning release by channelling lightning through his sword or using the chidori (I believe it's worth mentioning that even if Sasuke cuts off one of Kakuzu's hands, or limbs or inflicts an injury, Kakuzu can use his earth grudge fear to sew up any wound or injury sustained and that includes disembodied limbs and organs)
    You seem to forget that Sasuke tends to cleave through his opponents by thrusting a Chidori or penetrate them from long-range with Chidori Spears. I'm not seeing why an in-character Sasuke would cut off Kakuzu's limbs and not cleave through his heart.


    once Kakuzu realises that Sasuke can use lightning release (either by observing Sasuke channel lightning or after he gets hit by one of his lightning based atracks) let's say Sasuke is successful in destroying one of Kakuzu's hearts, Sasuke has no knowledge of Kakuzu's abilities and how many hearts Kakuzu has.
    And Kakuzu has no knowledge of Sasuke's abilities either. Besides, once Sasuke manages to "kill" Kakuzu and then finds out that Kakuzu is still alive, he will say something like "I'm sure I did not miss the vital point", just like Kakashi, and when the masks emerge and one of them is evidently injured, he will realize that what he penetrated was one of these masks that emerged from Kakuzu's body. He is now steps closer to finding out Kakuzu's main ability.

    This will cause Kakuzu to switch to long range ( I chose the scenario where Kakuzu gets hit by a lightning based attack and he decides to switch to long range but could have gone with Kakuzu switching to long range after seeing Sasuke create a chidori or chanel lightning through his sword because of the weakness of his earth style defense but I didn't chose the latter because I will have to explain why he didn't switch to long range when he saw Kakashi use his lightning cutter.) so this is now a long range battle and Sasuke's long range techniques like the fire ball jutsu and he's other fire based techniques won't work as I explained before so he will have to relay on his chidori spear that requires you to be with in 5M of your target, okay since Sasuke used chidori to destroy what he believed to be Kakuzu's main heart, he could try again and aim for the same exact spot once he can close the distance between him to create the opportunity to use it, obviously this won't have any effect on Kakuzu since his heart was already destroyed (let's say Sasuke somehow now acquires the information regarding Kakuzu's hearts) he will try and use the branched chidori Spear let's assume he's successful in using the technique (how many hearts will he hit with attack, keep in mind he doesn't know the location of the hearts (you know since the sharingan doesn't offer x-ray vision) I give him a 50% probability that the branched chidori Spears will hit a heart, so let's say he has now destroyed 2 more of Kakuzu's hearts), I didn't include the chidori senbon as one of his long range attacks he can use because even though they are lightning based, I don't think they have the force and power to destroy, much less breach Kakuzu's skin.
    There is no instance in which Kakuzu withdrawn or kept a large distance between him and his opponent. When he got one of his hearts penetrated by Kakashi's Raikri, he engaged in close quarter combat again and kept a distance no more than five or so meters. He also had his masks near him or attached to him most of the time so that he can switch hearts whenever he is about to die, however they leave him for a few seconds to attack the opponent and then come back to him. That is advantageous to Sasuke because an in-character Kakuzu, who has no knowledge regarding Sasuke's Raiton ninjutsu, will normally keep approximately five meters between him and Sasuke which will give the latter the chance to use Chidori Sharp Spear to stab Kakuzu's heart once again and make the Chidori spear diverge into eight branches (not counting the actual spear which will cleave through Kakuzu himself) and target the other masks (it's natural that Sasuke will try to defeat the masks so intel does not matter). Sasuke most likely can use the Chakra shape transformation ability, which is another form of Chakra control, to manipulate the branches of the Chidori Spear, so with three targets around, it is more than likely that Sasuke will get one or two -if not all three- with his Chidori Sharp Spear branches, as well as Kakuzu himself. If one mask is defeated, Kakuzu's power will be significantly reduced. If two are down, Kakuzu will only have one mask for offense and one kept inside him and his power will be significantly reduced as well. If all three got beaten, Kakuzu is hopeless. Anyways, Kirin, which will be addressed below in this post, will end them all simultaneously.

    Even if Kakuzu was around ten meters away from Sasuke (which is out-of-character for Kakuzu, but let's just assume he does that), Sasuke in Cursed Seal Mode lvl2 can cover the distance between himself and Kakuzu with shocking speed (again, his Shunshin in base form allowed him to evade Amaterasu and outspeed it for a few seconds) and use Chidori Sharp Spear to stab Kakuzu as well as his hearts. He can also use that same attack to cut off Kakuzu's threads.

    Now let's talk about Kakuzu's offensive capabilities, thanks to his earth grudge fear he is able to extend stitches from his body that act as fast moving extended projectiles
    As long as they are slower than Amaterasu, Sasuke will have no problems dodging said projectiles.

  12. #37
    I exceeded the character limit so I had to cut my post in two.

    But let's say he somehow destroys the masks and heads for the main body, and Sasuke manages to destroy his last remaining hearts, Kakuzu can use the earth mask to revive one of his destroyed hearts under the assumption that it's over Kakuzu can surprise Sasuke and launch a what would be a fatal attack or Continue on fighting, plus I think I should mention that given Kakuzu's intelligence compared to that of Sasuke's, this scenario will most likely not happen(I suppose it's worth mentioning that the masks all four of them can act as replacements for any of his damaged hearts) I suppose it's also worth mentioning that Kakuzu can fuse with the masks to make himself more powerful which I feel will rival the curse seal, so no matter how you look at it Sasuke will lose, please keep in mind I have thrown Sasuke too many bones hear just to try and level the field and I have justified my reasons on why Kakuzu would win.
    I don't recall Kakuzu being able to do the bold. Seriously, I'm curious as to where you acquire your information from. Also fusing with the masks won't help Kakuzu as Sasuke still can use Chidori Sharp Spear to cut off the threads and stab Kakuzu, who is feat-less when it comes to reaction speed and dodging, along with his masks or Kirin to instantly finish him off.


    And you I kept bringing up Kakashi in order for him to act as a frame of reference (in my previous posts it would have been easier to determine who would win between Sasuke and Kakashi, simply because if Sasuke can't beat Kakashi, then I feel like he won't be able to beat Kakuzu)
    Again, that is a weak and flawed logic. A being stronger than B while B is stronger than C does not instantly mean A is stronger than C. You should always keep that in mind.

    Plus I explained countless times in my previous posts why kirin is not an option, until the weather conditions of the battle are specified because if it's a clear sunny day Sasuke would have to create the storm cloud conditions in order to use the technique and this requires time and chakra, keep in mind the last time Sasuke used kirin, he had Itachi's amaterasu helping create the weather conditions (when Itachi engulfed the surrounding forest in fire using amaterasu) the great Dragon fire technique speeded up the process. If it's during a rainy weather than yes kirin is in play and would ideally give Sasuke the advantage.
    The weather should be the same as when the battlefield was shown in the Manga, in other words, a bit cloudy. While it's true that Sasuke will waste a little portion of his Chakra as well as several minutes of his time, that will not be too disadvantageous and Sasuke can wait until Kirin is ready, assuming Kakuzu does not get a Chidori Spear by CS2 Sasuke and get beaten along with his masks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
    Sasuke had absorbed Orochimaru when he fought Itachi though.
    This is base Hebi with CS2 without snakes.
    As I have already stated, Hebi Sasuke means Sasuke has all feats prior to Orochimaru's absorption by Totsuka no Tsurugi, so Hebi Sasuke has snakes. Besides, "Hebi" in Japanese means snakes.
    Last edited by Zoro; 08-24-2014 at 02:54 PM.

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